My i please re join the guild

[JestatisBess]

May i please re join the guild.  I was told i couldn't rejoin because of the polls i created last night. Geno did reinvite me but Smitty expelled me.  Cuim and Diriga were re invite immediatly and so was i by smittens. But since he didn't like the poll he is denieing me access to the guild and the guilds protected site. And was told i need to re apply, unlike the other who just last week were let back in no questions asked.

I'm going to send an un eddited version of my logs to lebermac.  I'm going to ask him to post those logs for all ITAN guildmates can see them.

I hope the polls continue to run. Can somone keep me informed on how thier doing but email or pm.

Thanks

JB

[Smittens]

Alright, a few things to clarify...

1) Yes, Jess' posts pissed me off. All that means is that I do not want to reinvite him (the points brought up were not accurate, as I disucss in the related thread), as opposed to the other night, or with Durgia, or with Cuim, when I wanted them in the guild. Thus I will not invite him, but if Itan wants him in, that's fine

2) As I said, after the polls I did not want him in, however Geno invited him before I got to talk with him. Thus it was only a miscommunication that he got back in tonight, which I corrected with Geno's permission

3) Leber, please do not post these logs. I don't expect you to, as you're not Itan and technically should not have access, even if right now you're pissed with me. I'll be very disapointed if you do. Jess, you're not in Itan anymore, you can't talk to people in charge to get your words in. Deal with it that you're just like everyone else.

[JestatisBess]

I will of course abide my the desion of my former guild mates. As long as they have a fair hearing. But you brought this on yourself Smittens.  Al i did what speak my mind and ask the guild what should be done. Nothing more and nothing less.

They are my logs I can post them myself i guess. But i was trying not to make this public.

[Roguelazer]

Smittens, this is not a dictatorship. We are not going to suppress Jess's log entries just because he is no longer in the guild. I don't know about IA, but IDF always had a policy of investigating complaints in full. I say that we let Jess be heard. He has a right to voice his opinion! I will not participate in a guild that suppresses dissenting opinions.

[JestatisBess]

Below are my edited logs for the evening. I only took out chan 100 and private chats. I

[JestatisBess]

[07/01/06 02:51:27] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai>  ....I will try to keep up in future ...but I am here for the Mayhem.....Sorry Smitts your question is too direct....Leadership is too complex for .....
[07/01/06 02:51:34] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai> such a simple question
[07/01/06 02:51:39] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> this is not a game to me its al about trust. i would like to have trust in the leader ship
[07/01/06 02:51:49] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Well I guess that's the problem Jess
[07/01/06 02:51:52] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Because this IS a game
[07/01/06 02:52:04] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> And if you don't trust us, then /resign before you get kicked
[07/01/06 02:52:08] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> but your actions and relationships are not
[07/01/06 02:52:26] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Maybe. OOC I've got many good friends from this game
[07/01/06 02:52:37] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai> I think you a great player Smitts but Since I don't know too much about what you are supposed to do as commander then I can say this.....
[07/01/06 02:53:20] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai>  from my LIMITED perspective you are doing a grand job....But since I cannot comment on other aspects of what a commander does ....
[07/01/06 02:53:20] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> I generally don't try to reach out to the people that criticize me and slander my name at every turn
[07/01/06 02:53:35] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> There Jess. A Guild poll just like you asked
[07/01/06 02:53:43] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai> I cannot give you a fair and complete answer
[07/01/06 02:53:53] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> You did fine Cuim
[07/01/06 02:54:35] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> and Cuimhai do you think i should be expelled for having a differnt oponion of our current commander
[07/01/06 02:54:38] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai> ....I really don't know the origins of Jest's arguement and cannot say that He is a bad person either...Coz me and him get on well
[07/01/06 02:54:46] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> BTW, Cuim/Geno, are you guys gonna make it to the S4 event on Saturday?
[07/01/06 02:55:01] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Jess that's not why you're being kicked
[07/01/06 02:55:20] (Guild) [Deneb B-12] <Cuimhai> huh who's being kicked now?.....I read too slow
[07/01/06 02:55:26] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> If that were it, then you'd be /expelled by ME right now
[07/01/06 02:55:36] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> You're gonna be booted because you should not have been allowed back in
[07/01/06 02:56:19] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> because of my so called lies and exaerations...
[07/01/06 02:56:22] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Then, if you want back in, like you obviously do/did
[07/01/06 02:56:32] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> and because you aren't looking to well in the poll
[07/01/06 02:56:56] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Right. Where ROGUELAZER and someone who doesn't even have access to the forums voted
[07/01/06 02:57:00] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> And you
[07/01/06 02:57:02] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Thats three votes
[07/01/06 02:57:19] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> last time i check there was 3 or 4 votes against you
[07/01/06 02:57:32] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Right, 3 what I said
[07/01/06 02:58:04] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> You, not in Guild at time of vote, Stranger, not in Guild at time of vote, and Rogue, who I'd expect nothing less from
[07/01/06 02:58:07] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> expell me if you want to but i would like access back on the forums so i can see whats going on
[07/01/06 02:58:12] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> No
[07/01/06 02:58:20] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> You aren't in Itan, you don't get Itan forum access
[07/01/06 02:58:23] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> stranger didn't vote
[07/01/06 02:58:26] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Again the world does not revolve around you
[07/01/06 02:58:42] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Well he posted in a way that made it look like he voted along with you
[07/01/06 02:58:49] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] Jestatis Bess waiting to be expeled
[07/01/06 02:59:08] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> I want you to understand why you're being booted Jess
[07/01/06 02:59:11] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> he didn't vote reasd it carefully he said he could in all counsios vote and then leave
[07/01/06 02:59:32] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Fine. Whoop de do, you've got someone on Rogue's side
[07/01/06 02:59:32] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> here is the decission:
[07/01/06 02:59:40] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> it seems to me i'm being booted because i stired up some trouble
[07/01/06 02:59:45] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> at this point....I would like to expel the BOTH of you.
[07/01/06 02:59:46] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Geno and Cuim have both stated they like our leadership
[07/01/06 02:59:55] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> you guys are behaving like children.
[07/01/06 02:59:57] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> would you have let me in before my forum posts?
[07/01/06 03:00:13] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Alright, I'm sorry, you're right. I'm just gonna say this one more time
[07/01/06 03:00:18] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> Smittens.......you should always think of the consecuences before the action
[07/01/06 03:00:25] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> You're being booted because you shouldn't have been let in
[07/01/06 03:00:30] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> Jest........take it easy...it is a GAME
[07/01/06 03:00:53] (Guild) [Sedina D-14] <Smittens> Do you want us to consider readmiting you?
[07/01/06 03:01:06] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> ok man expel me then but you did reinvite the same night i left :)
[07/01/06 03:01:19] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> why?
[07/01/06 03:01:27] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> I reinvited you ....because I like having you in the Guild.
[07/01/06 03:01:39] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Cuimhai> hey jest you are cool
[07/01/06 03:01:44] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> no smittens did too the same night i left
[07/01/06 03:01:45] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> And I think you are an asset to the Guild.
[07/01/06 03:01:55] (Guild) [Sedina B-8] <Smittens> See? You obviously will be readmited if you want to be
[07/01/06 03:02:02] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> smittens is our CO and our LOKI and .....I see his point as well.
[07/01/06 03:02:43] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> you are treating me differnt then everyone else if i didn't know better i would say you had a grude against me
[07/01/06 03:03:04] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> who, me ?
[07/01/06 03:03:08] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> *sigh* I'm done with this
[07/01/06 03:03:13] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> Cuimhai was immediatly reinvited and so was i the night i left by you... why if i wasn't supposed to be?
[07/01/06 03:03:47] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Geno or Cuim, are you comin to the S4 race today?
[07/01/06 03:03:50] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> 2:30 PST?
[07/01/06 03:03:51] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> He has a point there smit./........cuim got back in easily as well...
[07/01/06 03:04:15] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> teh difference is however......there was no controversy around his leaving...really.
[07/01/06 03:04:16] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> wand so did durgia i think thats his name
[07/01/06 03:04:30] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Okay, can I just answer this question without more bickering/childishness?
[07/01/06 03:04:36] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> please
[07/01/06 03:04:45] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> the contevery wasn't around me leaving it was around my last post nothing more
[07/01/06 03:04:55] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Yes, I don't want you back in because of your posts. You stirred up shit with L/E'
[07/01/06 03:04:57] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> right....that's what I mean.
[07/01/06 03:05:29] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> sorry i thought this was a semi-democracy... freedom of speach and all
[07/01/06 03:05:47] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> as...it should be......but,, we do have LT / CO positions for a reason.
[07/01/06 03:05:56] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> i have labored hard over the last 8 months to keep it that way... 1 person one vote
[07/01/06 03:05:57] (Guild) [Deneb E-12] <Cuimhai>  yep it is...unforunately ....people can speak back...it sucks :(
[07/01/06 03:06:28] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> but the co is not GOD... he can't make differnt rules or rules when he feels like it
[07/01/06 03:06:46] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> I'm not making rules Jess
[07/01/06 03:06:58] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> I reiinvited you the first time, and Cuim the first time, and Durgia because I like the min the the Guild
[07/01/06 03:07:04] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> *Like them in the Guild
[07/01/06 03:07:06] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> i would have been reinvioted with no proplem had i not done the posts... there done the poll will stand with or with out me
[07/01/06 03:07:14] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Right
[07/01/06 03:07:22] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> yes that is right.
[07/01/06 03:07:29] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> i a am being treated differntly because i have an opinion smitty doesn't share :)
[07/01/06 03:07:32] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> As cuim said, you can't expect people not to react just because you have the right to free speach
[07/01/06 03:07:34] (Guild) [Deneb I-13] <Cuimhai> jest I think you just admitted the flaw in your case (polls )
[07/01/06 03:07:34] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> *speech
[07/01/06 03:07:39] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Pretty much Jess
[07/01/06 03:07:49] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> wait....reinvited Jest the first time ?
[07/01/06 03:07:52] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> You pissed me off, which means I no longer want to invite you in the Guild
[07/01/06 03:07:54] Your buddy IRC logged on.
[07/01/06 03:07:58] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> all i did was make posl to ask THE PEOPLE
[07/01/06 03:08:05] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> Smittnes you reinvited him before ?
[07/01/06 03:08:07] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Whatever your reasons are, it still happened
[07/01/06 03:08:13] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Yeah when he left a first time around the MGL thing
[07/01/06 03:08:24] (Guild) [Deneb O-3] <Genotype> A'right....so Jets why didn't you join then ?
[07/01/06 03:08:28] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> no you invited me wenesday night man
[07/01/06 03:08:32] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> ?
[07/01/06 03:08:34] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Ooh
[07/01/06 03:08:38] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Okay yeah, before the polls
[07/01/06 03:08:39] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Yep
[07/01/06 03:08:57] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> So if you had joined then, I wouldn't have expelled you or anything
[07/01/06 03:09:07] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> There's other people I'm having problems with in the Guild, but i'm not /expelling them
[07/01/06 03:09:25] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> yes you did so the only reason is i have an opinion u don't share... so expel me don't make geno do it for you, if you want but i will get back in and i will be
[07/01/06 03:09:34] *** Server will restart in 15 minutes: Vendetta 1.6.6 patch.
[07/01/06 03:10:26] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> i guess i'm loggin off now.... i'll see what you deside to do tommorrow but i hope if you do expel me you do it smittens and not make Genotype do it
[07/01/06 03:10:40] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Jess you should not be in this Guild
[07/01/06 03:10:48] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> It was a matter of miscomunication that you were reinvited tonight
[07/01/06 03:11:05] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> but make sure you keep a copy of these logs because you said everything you needed to say
[07/01/06 03:11:25] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> Alright, I'm not gonna stick Geno in the middle. I'll /expel you Jess, unless you want to /resign
[07/01/06 03:11:37] (Guild) [Sedina L-2] <Jestatis Bess> when they are presented i want to make sure you know they are genuine
[07/01/06 03:12:05] (Guild) [Sedina A-8] <Smittens> You probably will get back in if you apply for membership. Until then, cya
[07/01/06 03:12:09] You have been expelled from the Guild.

[genotype]

Dudes,

wtf ?  Chill!.

Jest, post the logs, if you like. But  I was there and the both of you behaved like little 12 year-old school girls last night. It won't necessarily just reflect bad on smittens(TM) guy.

AS for the polls that actually wasn't smittens doing, but upper cases' and mine.

You want a poll ? Fine we can do that but let's try and do it in an objective manner and give our guild members more then one out of five options to vote for smittens.

If you want to overthrow the current leadership. Fine, that is your right. However, if you accuse someone of doing something than we will do it in the same way as in a proper court. Now, we don't have a trial here. So, we don't have a jury and we don't have anyone defending smittens' point of view. And therefore posting in the aggressive manner you have done here is likely to cause trouble and have people that don't know what is going on vote quickly without thinking.

Don't get me wrong. I am not happy with what smittens did to Leber AT ALL. Infact I am quite..........disgruntled. To put it nicely. However, we also can't keep fighting in this manner within the guild. That is pointless and childish. Plus, it was RP......role playing...... The only person who should really have a saying in this should be LeberMac.

Yes, we are a democratic guild. But what is the point of voting people into positions like LT or CO, or council, if they cannot make any decissions that don't always reflect everyones opinion ?  

I think you can ask "Stranger", that if he goes to his supperior officer in a time like an impending [SCAR] attack and starts a poll on , let's say the submarine, to overthrow his commanding officer, what will he do ? Probably, throw him into jail. (Correct me if I am wrong Stranger).

Now technically, you being out of the guild, should not have allowed you to start the polls in the first place. Just saying this to point out that to illustrate that there are more than enough reasons for the polls to have been removed from the forum.

We have been voting for stuff for the past 6months. This is ridiculous. And we are JUST now about to finalize our command structure on the VO forums. I think we should try and go with this group of people in this combination for at least a little while. WE will have revotes for the entire thing in 3 months again anyway. Then, if people didn't like the way their leadership behaved they can change it.

[ITAN] will never have a chance, if we change our leadership as frequently as Italy. If [ITAN] keeps fluctuating all the time, of course that is a bad thing.

Also, leaving doesn't give you the right to just come back whenever you like.  I for example DID NOT reinvite Cuimhai back , when he left. And he is a very good friend. Smittens did however. And he is free of doing , too, since he IS the commander.

Roguelazer, I understand learning a little bit more about the history of IA and IDF how you feel about smitttens being commander. He is irritating. However, 3 months isn't that long of a time. So please try to stay objective in this matter. Personal hatred doesn't help us here.

Jest, as I said last night. I would like to have you back in the guild. However, I must say that I am a little disappointed about how you react to situations that don't go along your plan of things. And also, I don't take it lightly when people threaten me.

[Roguelazer]

This is unacceptable behavior on the part of Smittens. Falsification of votes, suppression of dissenting opinions, unilateral diplomatic action, unilateral disciplinary action, overriding the Council, and numerous other offences. Action should be taken. I'm starting some threads in Chambers on this.

[slime]

It was me who voted, not Stranger. that log just strengthened my belief that Smittens is going too far.

[Smittens]

"Smittens, this is not a dictatorship. We are not going to suppress Jess's log entries just because he is no longer in the guild."

No, we're going to suppress them from the boards where you need to be a guild member to have access, because right now he's not a guild memeber. Posting them here was fine.

" I don't know about IA, but IDF always had a policy of investigating complaints in full."

IDF also had a charter you had to recite "from memory" on entering. Or, of course, one could just put VO into window mode and READ the charter.

"I say that we let Jess be heard."

It looks like we're hearing him right now, there's no problem with him posting here.

"This is unacceptable behavior on the part of Smittens. Falsification of votes, suppression of dissenting opinions, unilateral diplomatic action, unilateral disciplinary action, overriding the Council, and numerous other offences. Action should be taken. I'm starting some threads in Chambers on this."

Okay, for non councils I'm gonna copy paste my response outa COuncil chambers in like 5 mins...

[slime]

I never had to recite anything to get into IDF...

[Roguelazer]

He refers to the oath, which you didn't need to recite from memory. The inviting officer spoke it to you and you repeated it, one line at a time. That is irrelevant, however.

[slime]

Hmm I don't remember that...
MAN my memory sucks.

[Smittens]

Alright, copied from council chambers. All the bullets are Rogue's ideas of charges, and the things under them are my responses

"    * Fraud against the Council and the general membership
    * Falsification of voting records
    * Subversion of the Democratic process

None of those were me. Nice try though

    * Suppression of formal complaints

Don't know what you're talking about here

    * Suppression of the Freedom of Speech vis-a-vis Jestatis Bess

The posts were not removed by me. Again, nice try

    * Formulation of diplomatic treaties and alliances without the consent of the Council and voting membership

I don't see a charter or anything that declares I must get council approval for this, so you can't start making up rules now.

    * Violation of the accused's implied rights to due process (vis-a-vis the expelling of JestatisBess)

Jess was not supposed to be in the guild. I explained this all in the Recruiting forum

    * Misappropriation of guild funds (nobody seems to know exactly how much money we have or where it is)

Again, no one previously has said ANYTHING about this. I've still got the 100 mil Leber entrusted to me, and if people WANT us to start keeping records, thats fine. Also I'm using 5 mil on the S4 race. But you can't use that against me either, because again there have been no rules set down at all before this, for Holdan, Mogul, or Jess."

[JestatisBess]

I originally quit because Smittens expelled Lebermac. That was wrong. I should have stayed in and made my voice heard. I should have taken the council spot and done what Roguelazer did, fight from the inside.

Smittens is right about one thing though: There are no rules on what he or anyone else can and cannot do.  I was in the process of requesting both IA and IDF charters before I left.  I wanted to use them to draft some kind of charter for the guild.

The only thing this situation really shows is that a charter is needed. So people know what they can and can't do.  All I'm doing is fighting a double standard. At least 2 people left the guild and were reinvaded, in the past couple of weeks, immediately. I was even reinvaded by Smittens himself before the poll.  I even had access to the guild member pages of the forum up until I ran the polls. I don't think it is fair that I have to be head to a different standard, just because I disagree with the current Commanders actions.  That is not fair and that is what this is about.  It